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Lilith of Night
Discovering that the High Priestess is evil
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:09 am

I don't think they NEED each other. I think their history plus imprint is influencing that. I mean, if you've been in a long term relationship with someone or even had a friend for like 5 years and then one day everything changes and you're not always together you're of course going to miss them because you no longer have that routine. I don't know if that makes sense to other people, but that's how I see it. Maybe Heath does need Z, but she doesn't need him in the same way. He can no longer keep her safe and he even puts her in dangerous situations. No one needs that. Not to mention what could happen once Heath dies if he and Z did get to be together. Vamp life spans are way longer than humans, she'd out live him and then what? Go crazy and destroy stuff or turn to evil like Neferet because of the pain she feels?
The same scene also shows that had he not been with her it wouldn't have happened. Heath is her temptation. She could go either way when she's with him. I see Stark as more of her moral compass. He's willing to die for her safety. I don't think Heath would do that. Sure he'd do anything to be with her, but that's out of his own selfishness, just like she wanted to keep him around for as long as she could.
Heath is her past and Stark is her present. At some point you have to let go of the past and live in the present to get to the future.
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Johnny
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:40 am

We'll have to agree to completely disagree on that. And one point I have to call you out on is saying that Heath wouldn't sacrifice himself for Zoey. In the tunnels with the red things (before they became Red Fledgelings) and when the Raven Mocker attacked Zoey, Heath put himself squarely between Zoey and the danger. Admittedly he didn't have the High Priestess powers to fight the things off, and he KNEW THAT, and did it anyway ... if that's not willingness to sacrifice, I don't know what is. Again, I think Zoey needs Heath AND Stark, and I think Heath will come back and she'll have both; together, they keep her in balance.
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Lilith of Night
Discovering that the High Priestess is evil
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:52 am

That would have never even happened had Heath not even shown up or stayed in the tunnel. Instead Heath wanted Zoey to go his truck. So he could have just tried to jump in front because it would be his way of owning up to the mistake of putting Zoey in danger. See I don't think she could fully commit and love just one. She wants her cake and to eat it too. That leads to trouble, look at Kalona. It's a perfect example of a polyamorous relationship. They never work perfectly because there's always going to be someone who wants more. Heath puts her in danger all the time. That's not even healthy. If you were in a relationship with someone who almost got you killed would you want to stay? I think most people would leave.
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Johnny
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:21 pm

Heather never puts her in danger intentionally, and I don't think it was unreasonable, considering the connection and the past that he and Zoey have, to want to talk to her alone. If I was dating someone who put me in danger on purpose ... heck no, I'd dump them in a heartbeat. But that's not Heath.

I don't think she can fully commit or love just one person either. Which is why it really annoys me when some of the other posters here (not talking about you) call Heath 'selfish' ... they don't seem to criticize Zoey for dating Erik, while making out with Heath, and then having sex with Loren ... if that's not 'selfish', I obviously don't know the meaning of the word. And Heath has said he's ok with sharing Zoey ... well, not ok, but he's willing to do that if he has to to be a part of her life. That earns him big maturity points in my book ... he knows Zoey is different, knows she has another life that he isn't a part of and doesn't fully understand, and is willing to, no matter how much it hurts him, accept not being the 'only guy' in her life.

As far as putting her in danger, all of her friends and associates do that. Stevie Rae has done it, her ex-mentor Neferet has done it ... Zoey, because of her abilities and situation, is always going to find herself facing some kind of danger, and I think Heath is getting a bum rap from simply being around when that happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:46 pm

Wow. He doesn't do it intentionally, you're right, but Heath always ends up into trouble and Z always has to help. I mean, looked where it got her in Tempted/Burned!
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Johnny
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:12 pm

True, which is why I'm hoping when he comes back, although I hope he does it SOON, he'll have changed into something that will make him more capable of defending himself against the things that Zoey constantly has to face.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:18 pm

Ditto.
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Lilith of Night
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:11 am

He may not do it intentionally, but he still does because he's not always thinking right. Sometimes you just have to let people go. Neferet does it on purpose of course. She just wants all the power and control she can get. Stevie Rae doesn't intentionally want to hurt Zoey either, I understand how she feels about telling her about Raphaim. That's a hard spot to be in. But always having to save the day because Heath isn't using his head isn't a good thing either. He might as well be doing it on purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:37 pm

I agree with that as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:06 pm

Maybe I'm overlooking something; if you two wouldn't mind, please give me some examples of Heath not thinking right and putting Zoey in danger when he should have been aware that his actions might endanger her. I can't think of any. Please tell me:

1) What he did, and
2) How according to the books he should have definitely known beforehand that his actions were placing Zoey in jeopardy, or, if the didn't have that knowledge, how he wasn't 'thinking smart' and what he should have thought/known/realized before he did whatever he did to endanger Zoey.

If you can give me some examples, I'll happily give credit where credit is due and re-read with any eye toward re-examining Heath as a liability. If you can't (and unless I'm forgetting something major, again I can't think of any), then once again Heath is taking the rap because Zoey, due to her gifts, the timing of the story, and her situation as a powerfully gifted fledgling, basically challenged Neferet and holds some weird attraction for Kalona. And none of that is Heath's fault. At all.

Plz note, I'm not being sarcastic, I REALLY want to know if I'm seriously overlooking something.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:08 pm

Okay then....
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jedibarrister
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:49 pm

Zoey discovered too late how perfect Heath was for her. No matter how she pushed him away, he never went away. Even when she hurt him with Loren, he never acted like her friends or Stark or Erik. Given their history, the betrayal would've been deeper but his love for her was true. He tied her to her humanity and kept her head screwed on right. She finally realized it in the Otherworld. I hope all the talk about resurrection, and "in this lifetime", means that Nyx will gift Zoey with Heath for after she kicks Neferet and Kalona's patooties.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:54 pm

Lol. I LOVE UR PROFILE PIC///NAME!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:42 am

Jedibarrister, I'm with you ALL THE WAY on that ... I hope he comes back in Awakened.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:38 am

I don't agree. I mean, Zoey would be really happy and all, but she would probably leave my Stark. And it's not like he can go back to Stevie Rae because she's with Rephaim.




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Johnny
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:29 am

She can have both of 'em. Neither one might not be super happy, but Heath already said he'd share if he had to, and Stark would adjust to Zoey having a human consort.
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Lilith of Night
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:51 am

Johnny wrote:
Maybe I'm overlooking something; if you two wouldn't mind, please give me some examples of Heath not thinking right and putting Zoey in danger when he should have been aware that his actions might endanger her. I can't think of any. Please tell me:

1) What he did, and
2) How according to the books he should have definitely known beforehand that his actions were placing Zoey in jeopardy, or, if the didn't have that knowledge, how he wasn't 'thinking smart' and what he should have thought/known/realized before he did whatever he did to endanger Zoey.

If you can give me some examples, I'll happily give credit where credit is due and re-read with any eye toward re-examining Heath as a liability. If you can't (and unless I'm forgetting something major, again I can't think of any), then once again Heath is taking the rap because Zoey, due to her gifts, the timing of the story, and her situation as a powerfully gifted fledgling, basically challenged Neferet and holds some weird attraction for Kalona. And none of that is Heath's fault. At all.

Plz note, I'm not being sarcastic, I REALLY want to know if I'm seriously overlooking something.

The tunnels, Heath was always trying to get Z to sneak out and see him. I mean, She wasn't just hanging out in the tunnels because she thought they were cool and they went exploring. They went because the school wasn't safe and raven mockers were after them. He wanted her to talk to him by his truck, which of course was out in the open where the raven mockers could easily attack them. Like I stated before, if they were safe they wouldn't have gone to the tunnels. Why would you run away from home if you loved it so much like Z did before she knew Neferet was evil? Also, the day Z went off campus. They both know how humans see vamps. So why would it be perfectly okay to go out in public and let themselves get carried away and have people see them on a park bench? It wasn't intentional, but at the same time you have to keep in mind that not everyone is okay with vamps/fledglings being with a human. Everyone remember before and during the civil rights movement how mixed race couples were viewed? Heath knew that Z thought it was better they weren't together, but he kept pestering her and she gave in. I'm not saying it's all Heath's fault, but he knows Z couldn't resist him for long because of their history and their imprint. He's just as much at fault as she is. Sure he loves her, but just because you love someone doesn't mean you belong together. Sometimes letting someone go because you know they're better without you means you love them enough to keep them safe.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:24 am

The only reason Heath wanted to take Zoey outside was b/c Erik wouldn't allow them to talk inside. Lay the blame where it belongs. Erik could've stepped downstairs and given them 5 minutes to talk. It was his belligerence that pushed them outside to get attacked. As for the park, after a month of being away, Heath was in serious pain from the Imprint. He needed to see her not for some dorky high school meathead reason but b/c he needed her to drink and put his pain to ease.
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Lilith of Night
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:36 am

I thought he wouldn't let them talk within ear shot. So if he didn't move, then to me it's only logical that they moved within the tunnels. If Erik could have, then why couldn't they? I just didn't feel that there was an option to go outside knowing what Z knew about the mockers. Yes, but that doesn't mean they had to go out in the middle of a public park. What was so hard about going back to his truck or Z's car? Why out in public? That's my point. I mean, every teen knows of a place they can sit in the car and make out or whatever and not get spotted.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:03 pm

Erik was standing at the doorway into the tunnels and said he wasn't going to budge. Heath wanted to have a private discussion with Zoey and NEITHER of them could make Erik give them privacy. The area they were in wasn't large enough that they could go off to the side and not be seen/heard. As for the park, didn't Zoey set up the meeting there? I vaguely recall that she did when he was calling her begging to be seen. She thought it was going to be a quick "I shouldn't see you anymore" conversation. She had no idea the Imprint was so strong that it was causing Heath physical pain that needed release. I don't blame Heath. Zoey never sat and really listened to Heath....until he was dead. Erik wouldn't give them the space they both wanted out of jealousy. And Heath couldn't just go away because he had (a) over a decade invested in Zoey (not months like the other boys), (b) knew he was necessary to tie Zoey to her humanity (which even she admitted), (c) Zoey wouldn't have a mature conversation with him about their future and just kept pushing him away with what he considered lame excuses, and (d) as Stark recognized, with Heath and Zoey, the tie that bound them would always be a deep and abiding love.
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Lilith of Night
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Why be with someone that causes you not to make good decisions? Obviously Heath clouds her mind. That's not really a good thing either. Her impaired judgement when it came to Heath has proven dangerous. Not something Heath should be completely to blame for, but he knew the kind of hold he had on Z and he admitted it more than once. It's been awhile since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure one of the times he admitted it was on the boat heading to the island when they were in Italy. Not intentional, but he still isn't completely innocent.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Well said.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:24 pm

I agree.




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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:29 pm

Lilith of Night wrote:
Why be with someone that causes you not to make good decisions? Obviously Heath clouds her mind. That's not really a good thing either. Her impaired judgement when it came to Heath has proven dangerous. Not something Heath should be completely to blame for, but he knew the kind of hold he had on Z and he admitted it more than once. It's been awhile since I read the books, but I'm pretty sure one of the times he admitted it was on the boat heading to the island when they were in Italy. Not intentional, but he still isn't completely innocent.

I think it was clearly established that Heath cleared her mind not clouded it. Zoey admitted to him that by anchoring her humanity, she actually was a better person. I guess two people can read the same words and walk away with completely different takes on the same issue. But the last 2 books have been an aria to Heath, a major "thank you" for all he's done and fought for on Zoey's behalf....at least that's how I see it.
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PostSubject: Re: Heath.    Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:28 pm

In my opinion, you are both right. I mean yeah, Heath loves her and Zoey loves him right back. But only because Heath is human and they both contain and share memories with each other ever since they met in what what is...? Third grade? Yeah, third grade. They love the fact that it's dangerous to be together, which they both know. Heath just ends up dragging over trouble, knowingly or not. It doesn't matter because no matter where Heath is, Zoey ends up saving him, and the other way around. They save each other. When Heath gets Zoey into a big ol' heap of trouble, Zoey saves him and when Zoey gets hurt from that, Heath saves Zoey. So, in my opinion, it's niether of their faults because they are capable of making their own choices. Even if they aren't the brightest idea lightbulbs in the pack. They protect each other out of love. I would do it for Jagger and he would do it for me. just as I am sure all of you would willingly die or stick up for your loved ones just to protect them. So, again, I think your both right, but I think both of you are wrong as well. Love is a strong bond, especially when you're imprinted. I do not think that it's either of their faults anymore. It's a matter of love, and how they feel for each other. So, live long and prosper Zoey and Heath. Feel free to reserect Heath. Lol.
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